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Word is the BIG extended offer to UNC to join conference

  • For the record everybody, if the ACC were to collapse, UNC would be headed to the SEC. Barring a significant change, I can guarantee you that.

    UNC_Doug

  • The one thing I don't know about is the $50 million thing with Maryland because there isn't legal precedence in which the departing school hasn't negotiated that fee down (in recent years). I guess there's a first for everything.

    The one hypocritical statement that could be made is the Big Ten destroying a conference, when the ACC has accepted six schools from the Big East (seven with Notre Dame) since 2004.

    How Firm Thy Friendship...Ohio

    OSU43081

  • Black Bart said...

    i can tell all of you big 10 school reps on this board are concerned with what is best for the unc but i don't think they need your "objective" advice. all you want to do is destroy a conference for your own benefit. i hope the acc servives, but most of my relatives in north carolina tell me that 80-90% of the state wants to go to the sec if it doesn't. so keep on dreaming guys. why would they want to play in the frozen north? why...when they can drive to a game in a few hours. this goes a lot deeper than alot of the you northern schools can ever understand...unc is a southern school.

    If you're right ... if UNC would prefer to go to the SEC ... then that's probably where they will end up. The difference in money between the SEC and B10 will be negligible. But UNC better not expect to bring all of its ACC buddies with it to the SEC. The SEC will not be taking four schools from North Carolina. The SEC also won't be taking GT, Clemson or both UVA and VT. So if UNC joins the SEC, it will be leaving most of the ACC behind no different than if it joined the B10. In fact, with UMD already headed to the B10 and both UVA and GT high on the B10's wish list, more of UNC's traditional rivals probably will wind up in the B10 than the SEC. It also might matter what Duke wishes to do. If Duke/UVA/GT/UMD all head to the B10, it's not obvious to me that the SEC is a better fit for UNC.

    This post has been edited 3 times, most recently by MrWoodson on 2/21/2013 at 4:30 PM

    MrWoodson

  • MrWoodson said...

    It's the same reason the SEC would rather go after a school in North Carolina or Virginia than another one in Georgia or Florida or South Carolina. With limited exceptions, the marginal benefit of adding another school in an existing state is too small. And that is why adding Missouri made much more sense for the SEC than, say, Georgia Tech.

    There are exceptions. The B10 absolutely would take ND. And the SEC would absolutely take UT. But those are exceptions. An interesting question is whether the SEC would ever cave and take FSU just to keep the B12 out of the State of Florida. Maybe. But maybe not. And I think there is zero chance the SEC will ever take any of Clemson, GT or UL. They also won't take both UVA and VT. The marginal value of taking two schools in those states just isn't there.

    Another interesting question is whether either the B10 or SEC would ever take both UNC and Duke. I think they would, because the national brand value in basketball is so high, but I'm not sure. Mathematically, it would probably be better for the B10 to take UNC and one of GT/UVA/Miami than both UNC/Duke. But if necessary to get a deal done, I think both the B10 and the SEC would take the pair. They really are the gems of the conference.

    Can’t dispute any of your points. Those are same reasons I had embraced all along. But lately I lean toward monopoly presence.

    33laszlo99

  • Black Bart said...

    i can tell all of you big 10 school reps on this board are concerned with what is best for the unc but i don't think they need your "objective" advice. all you want to do is destroy a conference for your own benefit. i hope the acc servives, but most of my relatives in north carolina tell me that 80-90% of the state wants to go to the sec if it doesn't. so keep on dreaming guys. why would they want to play in the frozen north? why...when they can drive to a game in a few hours. this goes a lot deeper than alot of the you northern schools can ever understand...unc is a southern school.

    I live in North Carolina, so am familiar with the distance to get back to my home state. However, how many games have your parents driven to against Miami, FSU, BC, and soon to be Syracuse and Pitt? I'm guessing most of the UNC fans only attend home games anyway, so what's the difference for those that DO travel to those previous places I mentioned? They would still have UMD, UVA and a couple other ACC schools to go see and I can promise you that driving to Miami is just as long as driving to many BIG schools. Not to mention, there are stadiums in the BIG that are unbelievable to be a part of a game day. I'm sure it isn't what many fans desire, but I think once it was done, UNC would realize they fit in pretty well.

    signature image

    BestoftheBig

  • BestoftheBig said...

    I'm sure it isn't what many fans desire, but I think once it was done, UNC would realize they fit in pretty well.

    headslap

    Please see my previous post about patronization. Please don't act like we don't have an intelligent, cultured and well traveled alumni and fan base.

    All of the travel comparisons are irrelevant. From a UNC perspective (which is the only perspective that matters in this discussion), moving from the geographic center of the conference to a geographic outlier is unappealing. I traveled to three away football games last year and didn't drive more than six hours total to do it. Therefore, it doesn't matter if it is the SEC or the B1G. SO IF, let me repeat, SO IF a move has to be made, I would rather stay in the south in the SEC east. UNC is a much better fit with UGA, UF and Vandy than it is with any school in the B1G. Its not even close. Add in our neighbors Tennessee and SCar, for which a there is already a lot of passion between the fan bases (which is what makes college sports fun), and it is a no brainer.

    The question isn't if the B1G is a good fit. The question is whether the B1G is a better fit than the SEC and its not.

    The reason the B1G would suck is because we have nothing in common. There is no history. When was the last time UNC played a team from the B1G in football? I don't care about adding Maryland or GT for regional rivals in a 20 team conference (entirely too big btw). Not a selling point for me. (I am happy to trade Maryland for Louisville. You will find out why in time.) The geography is too much to overcome. I don't interact with many B1G alums on a weekly basis. Everyday I am shooting the bull about the ACC and SEC with alums from schools in both those conferences.

    Time will tell. Revenue is the big question mark. I am very, very skeptical of the BTN revenue projections. It is contingent on capturing a lot of basic cable markets. The east cost is not Nebraska. You won't be able to generate basic cable demand by withhold a few Maryland and Rutgers games. The ACC has a look-in with the addition of ND and Louisville. We will see what happens after the dust settles.

    I will tell you this. If UNC ends up in the B1G because the ACC is no longer viable, I will have to re-evaluate my giving levels. It will signal to me that the administrators completely ignored the alumni and fan base. That is not something I can support. If the sentiment of Tar Heel nation was more evenly split, I would feel differently, but it is not. If it happens, my giving will be limited to the B-school and it will be minimal.

    This post was edited by GoingHeels on 2/21/2013 at 8:54 PM

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    GoingHeels

  • I guess my question is, what will UNC do if the Big XII snatches up Clemson and FSU?

    getmyjive11

  • getmyjive11 said...

    I guess my question is, what will UNC do if the Big XII snatches up Clemson and FSU?

    From what I understand (via the interwebs and a few Seminoles I went to grad school with), the money isn't that much different between the Big XII and the ACC. Most of the difference would be offset by travel costs. I have also seen it reported that the networks told the Big XII that neither Clemson nor FSU would move the needle enough to increase the per team payout (which is why it isn't proactively looking to expand).

    Additionally, the GOR is as much an impediment to entry as it is an impediment to leaving.

    This post was edited by GoingHeels on 2/21/2013 at 7:36 PM

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    GoingHeels

  • GoingHeels said...

    headslap

    Please see my previous post about patronization. Please don't act like we don't have an intelligent, cultured and well traveled alumni and fan base.

    All of the travel comparisons are irrelevant. From a UNC perspective (which is the only perspective that matters in this discussion), moving from the geographic center of the conference to a geographic outlier is unappealing. I traveled to three away football games last year and didn't drive more than six hours total to do it. Therefore, it doesn't matter if it is the SEC or the B1G. SO IF, let me repeat, SO IF a move has to be made, I would rather stay in the south in the SEC east. UNC is a much better fit with UGA, UF and Vandy than it is with any school in the B1G. Its not even close. Add in our neighbors Tennessee and SCar, for which a there is already a lot of passion between the fan bases (which is what makes college sports fun), and it is a no brainer.

    The question isn't if the B1G is a good fit. The question is whether the B1G is a better fit than the SEC and its not.

    The reason the B1G would suck is because we have nothing in common. There is no history. When was the last time UNC played a team from the B1G in football? I don't care about adding Maryland or GT for regional rivals in a 20 team conference (entirely too big btw). Not a selling point for me. (I am happy to trade Maryland for Louisville. You will find out why in time.) The geography is too much to overcome. I don't interact with many B1G alums on a weekly basis. Everyday I am shooting the bull about the ACC and SEC with alums from schools in both those conferences.

    Time will tell. Revenue is the big question mark. I am very, very skeptical of the BTN revenue projections. It is contingent on capturing a lot of basic cable markets. The east cost is not Nebraska. You won't be able to generate basic cable demand by withhold a few Maryland and Rutgers games. The ACC has a look-in with the addition of ND and Louisville. We will see what happens after the dust settles.

    I will tell you this. If UNC ends up in the B1G because the ACC is no longer viable, I will have to re-evaluate my giving levels. It will signal to me that the administrators completely ignored the alumni and fan base. That is not something I can support. If the overriding sentiment was closer, I would feel differently, but it is not. If that happens, my giving will be limited to the B-school and it will be minimal.

    I'm not arguing your point or your preference, but most of it is based on athletics, which the BIG expansion is not based on.If it was why would Rutgers and Virginia be targets instead of Syracuse and Va Tech? So, behind closed doors, the money that is being talked about sure is some from the BIG Ten Network, but that's a drop in the bucket to the conference grabbing a larger percentage of research grants. I agree with you that for sports you obviously fit better in the southern market, but academically it is also no comparison who UNC would fit much closer to.

    I guess we'll know which was the deciding factor to the decision makers by which conference, if any, UNC joins.

    signature image

    BestoftheBig

  • BestoftheBig said...

    I'm not arguing your point or your preference, but most of it is based on athletics, which the BIG expansion is not based on.If it was why would Rutgers and Virginia be targets instead of Syracuse and Va Tech? So, behind closed doors, the money that is being talked about sure is some from the BIG Ten Network, but that's a drop in the bucket to the conference grabbing a larger percentage of research grants. I agree with you that for sports you obviously fit better in the southern market, but academically it is also no comparison who UNC would fit much closer to.

    I guess we'll know which was the deciding factor to the decision makers by which conference, if any, UNC joins.

    I haven't seen anything to change my opinion on research funding. UNC raises more individually than most of the schools in the B1G. Again, research funding isn't awarded based on conference affiliation. Additionally, the CIC doesn't have research funding earmarked.

    As I said before, show me some support and I may change my position. UNC is going to have to if it goes that direction and it better do a better job than Maryland's chancellor when he was challenged during a Q&A following the Maryland announcement.

    This post has been edited 2 times, most recently by GoingHeels on 2/21/2013 at 9:06 PM

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    GoingHeels

  • GoingHeels said...

    I haven't seen anything to change my opinion on research funding. UNC raises more individually than most of the schools in the B1G.

    As I said before, show me some support and I may change my position.

    I understand UNC receives a lot of research funding, not more than all BIG schools, but yes, a lot. That's kind of my point as to IF the decision to join is going to be based on sports or academics. EVERY school in the BIG gets hundreds of millions of dollars for research from AAU compared to very few schools in the SEC. If UNC joins the SEC, you still get your grant money, if UNC joins the BIG, they get more grant money.

    I'm from Ohio, lived there for 25 years, I now live in Wilmington, NC, been here 23 years. I can tell you, we aren't that different. Those that think the Midwest is the polar opposite of the south haven't spent much time there. Hard working, moral people that love their sports. I was referring to BOTH regions there. I can promise you the UNC folks have more in common with Ohio, Indiana and Michigan than they do with Boston, Miami or New York yet you have those in your conference now.

    signature image

    BestoftheBig

  • GoingHeels said...

    headslap

    Please see my previous post about patronization. Please don't act like we don't have an intelligent, cultured and well traveled alumni and fan base.

    All of the travel comparisons are irrelevant. From a UNC perspective (which is the only perspective that matters in this discussion), moving from the geographic center of the conference to a geographic outlier is unappealing. I traveled to three away football games last year and didn't drive more than six hours total to do it. Therefore, it doesn't matter if it is the SEC or the B1G. SO IF, let me repeat, SO IF a move has to be made, I would rather stay in the south in the SEC east. UNC is a much better fit with UGA, UF and Vandy than it is with any school in the B1G. Its not even close. Add in our neighbors Tennessee and SCar, for which a there is already a lot of passion between the fan bases (which is what makes college sports fun), and it is a no brainer.

    The question isn't if the B1G is a good fit. The question is whether the B1G is a better fit than the SEC and its not.

    The reason the B1G would suck is because we have nothing in common. There is no history. When was the last time UNC played a team from the B1G in football? I don't care about adding Maryland or GT for regional rivals in a 20 team conference (entirely too big btw). Not a selling point for me. (I am happy to trade Maryland for Louisville. You will find out why in time.) The geography is too much to overcome. I don't interact with many B1G alums on a weekly basis. Everyday I am shooting the bull about the ACC and SEC with alums from schools in both those conferences.

    Time will tell. Revenue is the big question mark. I am very, very skeptical of the BTN revenue projections. It is contingent on capturing a lot of basic cable markets. The east cost is not Nebraska. You won't be able to generate basic cable demand by withhold a few Maryland and Rutgers games. The ACC has a look-in with the addition of ND and Louisville. We will see what happens after the dust settles.

    I will tell you this. If UNC ends up in the B1G because the ACC is no longer viable, I will have to re-evaluate my giving levels. It will signal to me that the administrators completely ignored the alumni and fan base. That is not something I can support. If the sentiment of Tar Heel nation was more evenly split, I would feel differently, but it is not. If it happens, my giving will be limited to the B-school and it will be minimal.

    No offense but you are the one being patronizing about your southern culture and you are ignorant. Labeling the B1G as some rust belt in the Midwest. By physical location many of the schools are but our students come from all over the world and when they graduate they spread back out all over the world.

    ErnieMcCracken ●

  • BestoftheBig said...

    If UNC joins the SEC, you still get your grant money, if UNC joins the BIG, they get more grant money.

    There is no support for your assertion. It actually runs contrary to the way grants are awarded. I know people that write grants. They laughed at the idea that athletic conference affiliation affects research funding.

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    GoingHeels

  • BestoftheBig said...

    I understand UNC receives a lot of research funding, not more than all BIG schools, but yes, a lot.

    Yes, University of Michigan and University of Wisconsin, according to the most-recent report (2011) from The Center for Measuring University Performance.

    http://mup.asu.edu
    http://mup.asu.edu/research2011.pdf

    How Firm Thy Friendship...Ohio

    OSU43081

  • GoingHeels said...

    There is no support for your assertion. It actually runs contrary to the way grants are awarded. I know people that write grants. They laughed at the idea that athletic conference affiliation affects research funding.

    Well, all I can say is I hope it works out best for UNC, whatever that may be. Good Luck to y'all..

    signature image

    BestoftheBig

  • You guys do realize that you can get Chick-Fil-A and sweet tea in the mid west now don't you?biggrin I think we even let our women wear sun dresses during the Spring and Summer.

    We are both atheists. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours

    OmegaBuckeye

  • OmegaBuckeye said...

    You guys do realize that you can get Chick-Fil-A and sweet tea in the mid west now don't you?biggrin I think we even let our women wear sun dresses during the Spring and Summer.

    Haha

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    GoingHeels

  • BestoftheBig said...

    Well, all I can say is I hope it works out best for UNC, whatever that may be. Good Luck to y'all..

    Thanks.

    I have enjoyed the discussion.

    Best case scenario, the ACC survives and adds ND as a full member (I know there is a very, very remote chance of that happening and I am not actually expecting it to) and one more team to get to sixteen.

    At sixteen, we can have two divisions that are effectively have two mini-conferences for football. (The basketball of the ACC is going to be rockstar so I am not too worried about its regular season). This would allow for a seven game intra-division schedule, two inter-division games, and three OOC games (hopefully against three power conference opponents). Division winner, determined by the best intra-divsion record, to play in the conference championship game.

    I think of it as expanding to get smaller. The reality would be that your division is what would classically be thought of as your conference.

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    GoingHeels

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    KenanSmith

  • That's a key point for recruiting against Auburn!!!!!

    buckeye4573

  • GoingHeels said...

    I would be interested in that articles because it is not inline with my understand of how research funding is awarded.

    The biggest source of angst for me and practically every Tar Heel I know is UNC is not a cultural fit with the B1G. UNC is a southern university. UNC has history with most SEC schools that goes back to the SoCon and we play the SEC fairly regularly, but there is zero history with any traditional B1G team. UNC could immediately start a genuine hate rivalry with Tennessee overnight. SCar is another rivalry that would instant. Lot of overlap with UGA and UF alums in the workplace. Not so much with any B1G schools. I have friends in Chicago and they tell me one big difference is on fall Saturdays big groups of B1G school alums heading to bars in droves. I don't know many B1G alums. Where is the fun in that?

    If a move has to be made, I want it to be made for the right reasons. Academic perception is not a valid reason for me. Vandy has done just fine in the SEC and it has not hurt its academic reputation in any way. CIC membership may be a value add, but I am not convinced it is the golden goose some make it out to be.

    I have seen studies that show athletics improve admissions and giving. I have not seen where athletic conference affiliation has a negative impact on academics. If there is support for that position, I will be more receptive to a move to. The B1G over the SEC. Until then, the SEC is a better overall fit for UNC's major men's sport - football, basketball and baseball.

    Also, I think SEC basketball sucks but would be able to challenge the B1G if you added UNC and dook (which has been rumored) and you give Anderson a couple of years to et it rolling at Arkansas. UNC, dook, UK and UF could redefine basketball blue bloods. Addison teams from Tennessee, aTm and Missouri every few years, not bad.

    Great post and I like the way you think about possible bball in SEC.

    BLatham

  • goingheels...really enjoyed reading your posts and feel like i have learned a great deal about carolina. i really wish you, unc_doug, and the rest of the unc fans nothing but the best. good luck with whatever lies ahead.

    signature image signature image signature image

    Black Bart

  • GoingHeels said...

    The reason the B1G would suck is because we have nothing in common. There is no history. When was the last time UNC played a team from the B1G in football?

    Illinois: 1987, 1991
    Indiana: 1999, 1997
    Iowa: never
    Maryland: 2012, 2007-2008, 2005, 1970-2003, 1970-1975, 1967-1968, 1953-1965, 1950-1951, 1946-1948, etc
    Michigan: 1979, 1965-1966
    Michigan State: 1962-1964
    Minnesota: Never
    Nebraska: 1977
    Northwestern: 1976-1977
    Ohio State: 1975, 1972, 1965, 1962
    Penn State: 1943
    Purdue: Never
    Rutgers: 2010-2011, 2008, 2006, 1919, 1894
    Wisconsin: 2005, 2003

    The short answer is last year. Excluding Rutgers and Maryland, 2005.

    Pretty regularly back in the 60's and 70's. Not so much since.

    FredF3

  • OmegaBuckeye said...

    You guys do realize that you can get Chick-Fil-A and sweet tea in the mid west now don't you?biggrin I think we even let our women wear sun dresses during the Spring and Summer.

    The women in the SEC can wear sun dresses when it matters... the fall :). Those of us in the SEC would love to have UNC (and Va. Tech), but can certainly understand how the BIG is attractive. I really think UNC has a no lose choice here. As a post said earlier, UNC can wait out the storm. Both conferences will gladly take them at any time. The only reason they would have to act now is if they insist on a dancing partner. It is fairly well known down here that Slive courted UNC and Duke 3 years ago and would let them both join. The BIG does not seem so inclined. Everybody seems to have gone into chill mode until the Maryland lawsuit is settled, so we'll see what happens.

    Land The Plane

    blueblindness

  • blueblindness said...

    The women in the SEC can wear sun dresses when it matters... the fall :). Those of us in the SEC would love to have UNC (and Va. Tech), but can certainly understand how the BIG is attractive. I really think UNC has a no lose choice here. As a post said earlier, UNC can wait out the storm. Both conferences will gladly take them at any time. The only reason they would have to act now is if they insist on a dancing partner. It is fairly well known down here that Slive courted UNC and Duke 3 years ago and would let them both join. The BIG does not seem so inclined. Everybody seems to have gone into chill mode until the Maryland lawsuit is settled, so we'll see what happens.

    Good points.

    We are both atheists. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours

    OmegaBuckeye

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